Things you love/hate in BL

Talk about everything non-game related here.
User avatar
SentimentalTrickster
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:38 am

Things you love/hate in BL

Postby SentimentalTrickster » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:54 pm

I'm writing character routes now and I was wondering about cliches. I know that cliches are generally bad because we see them all the time in anime/vn, but do you have any that you actually like?

I like it when a character observes someone who is unfriendly/hostile in a different environment where this person acts differently. Yeah, we see it a lot, but I think it's good exposition. And we all wear many masks, so we may behave differently at work than at home.

Now the easier part! Which cliches do you hate?

I hate it when there's too much drama. Don't get me wrong, characters can suffer a LOT but only when it makes sense or achieves something for the plot/chara development. I guess, for me, the worst kind of drama is when there's a misunderstanding and one character is agonizing over it, without actually talking the the second character. You have no idea how many times I was reading manga and mentally screaming "Your guy did NOT [kiss etc] someone else, just TALK to him!" But I guess this happens more often in shoujo.

Next, I despise weak and useless bottoms who don't get any character development > < I know that the whole "damsel in distress" is a popular trope, but I prefer my tops and bottoms equal. The same applies to shoujo, women can be as strong as men. We all have our weaknesses and weak moments, but I think that generally if you fail the first time, you try to do better in the future. It's only human. You can start weak but, eventually, you learn from your mistakes. Consoling and sympathizing with a character in his weak moment is all right. I just don't want this "weak moment" to last the whole game.
"There is, I think, humor here which does not translate well from English into sanity.”
― Jim Butcher, Changes

User avatar
Samoth
SuperBacker
SuperBacker
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:21 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby Samoth » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:50 pm

Not easy to answer. What about this one? "I am not in the mood to make love with you now, because I have a headache!" :|

User avatar
Roymaeda
SuperBacker
SuperBacker
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:03 pm

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby Roymaeda » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:01 pm

If their done well and not just mean all the time and by default then I actually like Tsundere as a trait. I like sex appeal male or female if its acknowledged or feels more likes the character doing than the staff of a game. Example in Devil survivor 2 Hinoka might go to frozen mountain and she complains shes cold. What shes wearing could hardly be described as a shirt. You can point out its impractical but she just says she wears because otherwise she just be "another girl boring with glasses". I like opposites attract thing when playing dragon age 2 I have no idea how many times I romanced Fenris as a male mage Hawke. Also when I can I sometimes tend to like morally ambiguous Love interests like Zevran was an assassin in dragon age orgins.

As for things I actually dislike in BL one and anime are characters who exists solely to be a love interest. Being someone's lover or crush is no excuse for them not to have a personality.
Odin " My darkness was darker than yours!".

User avatar
ChaosMorning
SuperBacker
SuperBacker
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:58 pm

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby ChaosMorning » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:40 am

Overly possessive characters, the constant romanticization of abusive relationships and rape, when pain is excessively described during sex scenes (literally if you're in pain something is going wrong mate)... and dear god, 'uke/seme' stuff. Ugh. I hate that so much, especially since most queer men are versatile. But honestly a lot of yaoi tropes are really problematic.

One thing I don't mind is when there is some gaynst. Not everything in life for queer people revolves around their sexuality, but it suspends my ability to believe in a setting if literally no one bats an eye at you not being straight, or if homophobia isn't even addressed. Again, that said, when there's too much of it it stop's being interesting and goes to being melodramatic, or just depressing. I appreciate some realism though.

User avatar
EchoArbor
SuperBacker
SuperBacker
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:31 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby EchoArbor » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:02 pm

ChaosMorning wrote:Overly possessive characters, the constant romanticization of abusive relationships and rape, when pain is excessively described during sex scenes (literally if you're in pain something is going wrong mate)... and dear god, 'uke/seme' stuff. Ugh. I hate that so much, especially since most queer men are versatile. But honestly a lot of yaoi tropes are really problematic.


^^^

The pain thing especially. No, it's not supposed to hurt. No, it's not normal. No, you don't just have to "get used to it". Proper foreplay is important, dammit.

--

Regarding other cliches... I have an issue with looks preceding personality. Unfortunately, it appears Sentimental Trickster has fallen into this. The voters choices for second outfits aren't really helping. Maybe I'll be surprised, but from everything I've seen/read so far, everyone except Haru looks like a cliche already :oops:
Image

User avatar
SentimentalTrickster
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:38 am

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby SentimentalTrickster » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:21 pm

Awesome, you guys are helping me a bunch with the things to include/not include in the game! If you think of something more, please write it here^^

Samoth wrote:Not easy to answer. What about this one? "I am not in the mood to make love with you now, because I have a headache!" :|

Haha yeah, there definitely won't be such a line in the game :D

Roymaeda wrote:As for things I actually dislike in BL one and anime are characters who exists solely to be a love interest. Being someone's lover or crush is no excuse for them not to have a personality.

I totally agree! If a character doesn't have a backstory and personality or at least a reasonable purpose if it's a secondary character, he's just taking up space.

ChaosMorning wrote:Overly possessive characters, the constant romanticization of abusive relationships and rape, when pain is excessively described during sex scenes (literally if you're in pain something is going wrong mate)...

What about overly possessive characters, but shown in bad light? I mean, when such a relationship is shown as clearly harmful to the second character, no idealization whatsoever? And the second character's aim is to change such a relationship or leave if it doesn't work?

EchoArbor wrote:No, it's not supposed to hurt. No, it's not normal. No, you don't just have to "get used to it". Proper foreplay is important, dammit.

--

Regarding other cliches... I have an issue with looks preceding personality. Unfortunately, it appears Sentimental Trickster has fallen into this. The voters choices for second outfits aren't really helping. Maybe I'll be surprised, but from everything I've seen/read so far, everyone except Haru looks like a cliche already :oops:

I have the same opinion. I never understood why panful sex is so popular in BL. I mean, pain is fine but when it's shown as something bad, in e.g. a bad ending. It shouldn't be a part of a normal loving relationship, unless it's something they're both into.

And about the characters, they do look like cliches, but I hope I'll be able to surprise you :)
"There is, I think, humor here which does not translate well from English into sanity.”
― Jim Butcher, Changes

User avatar
ChaosMorning
SuperBacker
SuperBacker
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:58 pm

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby ChaosMorning » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:56 pm

SentimentalTrickster wrote:What about overly possessive characters, but shown in bad light? I mean, when such a relationship is shown as clearly harmful to the second character, no idealization whatsoever? And the second character's aim is to change such a relationship or leave if it doesn't work?


It's the romanticizing of possessive relationships that I find really problematic. If it's clearly depicted that such a relationship is toxic then I see no reason for it not to be included.

I would be careful about the 'fix you' trope when it comes to 'curing' abusers. That's not saying not to do it at all, but just to be careful about how it's implemented.

User avatar
camneliops80
SuperBacker
SuperBacker
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:33 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby camneliops80 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:58 am

I agree with basically everything that's been said so far! My absolute least favorite BL cliche is the "spineless love martyr uke" type (where he's helpless, and crying, and can't do anything for himself, but he's absolutely convinced of the seme's love for him) coupled with the "smug rapist seme" type (where he's arrogant, smirking, condescending, and blatantly forcing himself on his love interest). Pairings like that make me so ANGRY. :evil:

As for most favorite cliches/cliches that I enjoy, I'd say I really like milder tsundere types (who blush and fidget around their love interests, rather than constantly yelling at them and calling them stupid). I also like it when one character feels jealous when they see their love interest talking to a pretty girl/handsome guy. Not over-the-top jealousy where there's the silent treatment and/or accusations of cheating, but just a little bit of insecurity and wanting reassurance that they are the one who's loved.
Image

User avatar
SentimentalTrickster
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:38 am

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby SentimentalTrickster » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:53 pm

ChaosMorning wrote:I would be careful about the 'fix you' trope when it comes to 'curing' abusers. That's not saying not to do it at all, but just to be careful about how it's implemented.

Yeah, it will be challenging to portray it well.

camneliops80 wrote:My absolute least favorite BL cliche is the "spineless love martyr uke" type (where he's helpless, and crying, and can't do anything for himself, but he's absolutely convinced of the seme's love for him) coupled with the "smug rapist seme" type (where he's arrogant, smirking, condescending, and blatantly forcing himself on his love interest). Pairings like that make me so ANGRY. :evil:

As for most favorite cliches/cliches that I enjoy, I'd say I really like milder tsundere types (who blush and fidget around their love interests, rather than constantly yelling at them and calling them stupid). I also like it when one character feels jealous when they see their love interest talking to a pretty girl/handsome guy. Not over-the-top jealousy where there's the silent treatment and/or accusations of cheating, but just a little bit of insecurity and wanting reassurance that they are the one who's loved.

I agree! There's nothing sexy about an abusive boyfriend > < And I like mild tsundere as well although I think there won't be one this time around. Maybe in the next game~ Being a little bit insecure about your lover and then reassured could be good for character development (depending on the character's personality because it will work only with some^^).
"There is, I think, humor here which does not translate well from English into sanity.”
― Jim Butcher, Changes

User avatar
Roymaeda
SuperBacker
SuperBacker
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:03 pm

Re: Things you love/hate in BL

Postby Roymaeda » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:06 pm

Things I like in BL and in general. I love it when a character has a sense of humor, which is subjective. I like digging into characters and looking past that but being funny is great and everything. But I tend to attach myself to those that use it as a defense mechanism. Like if anyone watches Steven universe Amethyst would be example she literally say she hates herself at one point. That said ether they or someone else needs to made aware this as a problem by someone or figure it out. I don't like being able to look at someone and guess their whole character or when x archetype is literally all they are.

On the spineless Uke I'm with you guys. Things always feel more real if you can argue or at least have a discussion. No party is always right all of the time. Uke needs to know he has a voice and seme needs to know not to do all the talking for both of them. Having these problems is one thing but not acknowledging them and or refusing to move past them is another matter entirely.
Odin " My darkness was darker than yours!".


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests